Comments on: The Demonic in the Mundane, Pt. 3

By: timgombis

timgombis — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:01:05 +0000

I think you’re right, Patrick, that this does indeed scare people. I think that’s because they don’t understand the larger framework in which such a population of the cosmos fits and they don’t get how such a conception functions in daily life. I hope to bring a little of this to light, but we’ll see…

By: Patrick

Patrick — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 17:56:05 +0000

Tim,

I took some OT theology courses last year and IMO, you’re right. The Hebrew text does not teach “other elohims” are not real, it teaches they are subservient to Yahweh whether they know it or not. It teaches idols are not real.

Paul taught they were demons, which makes sense to me.

This issue scares folks, it shouldn’t. Polytheism isn’t the picture here, there is never any doubt who runs the universe and who has “the power”.

By: Andrew T.

Andrew T. — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 01:44:54 +0000

I agree. It’s a defect in ‘western sensibilities’.

By: timgombis

timgombis — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:29:19 +0000

Paul assumes this worldview in 1 Cor. 8. It’s Israel’s worldview that these other gods do indeed exist, but they are the creations of God himself, the cosmic ruler figures he appointed over various aspects of creation. In the OT, however, they’re called “gods” and in those contexts Yahweh usually has a title that distinguishes him as not being in their class. He’s in a class by himself–”the Most High God, highly exalted above all gods.”

That last question is a great one!

By: joey

joey — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:13:16 +0000

I’m glad we agree!

By: joey

joey — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:12:49 +0000

Is Israel’s speech concerning the existence of other “gods” correct? That is, do other “gods” exist?
Could Micaiah simply be expressing the truth of what he knows in his own way? (1 Kings 22:21-23)
Was it God or Satan who incited David to take a census? (2 Sam 24:1, 1 Chron 21:1) Or, was Satan doing the bidding of God?

By: timgombis

timgombis — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:48:34 +0000

That’s the big question that sort of jumps out, isn’t it? It seems to reflect something like what was going on in 1 Kings 22, which gives a window into the “council of the gods” in the heavens. Israel’s Scriptures affirm and regularly refer to cosmic beings of spiritual authority (“gods” or “sons of god”) that operate in the world and who gather at the heavenly court of Yahweh, the Most High God. In surrounding cultures, a supreme deity gathers the other deities, competitors of the ruling god.

Yahweh, however, reigns supreme and the “gods” that appear throughout the Scriptures of Israel are his creations. They do indeed gather in the divine council and are accountable to the Most High God, but they are also rebellious, having gone their own way, and have been corrupted.

From time to time, in order to move forward God’s redemptive program, one of them is dispatched to carry out some “dark” task, such as the one we find in this passage and in 1 Kings 22. We might say that something similar is going on in Job.

In reference to Joey’s comment, I’m not so sure how far it’s true to say that there are no rogue demons. It seems plain that there are. Other texts (1 Cor. 15) indicate that evil spirits and the rulers of this present evil age are God’s enemies and he will destroy them. They are, literally, out of his control and he is in the process of bringing all things back under his sovereign rule.

At the same time, there is a sense in which God is working in the heavenly realm to oversee history providentially, moving it along, but also participating with humanity genuinely as he does so. So, in both passages, an evil spirit is dispatched from the divine council in response to a human decision to walk in sin.

At any rate, the Scripture picture is ambiguous–such figures are God’s enemies, God’s rebellious creatures who ruin his creation, thwarting his will, but they often unwittingly do God’s will.

By: timgombis

timgombis — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:32:50 +0000

I must say, Andrew, that would indeed be riveting! But it’s also something very few of us will ever encounter.

The temptation to grow bitter, to refuse to forgive, etc., . . . we just may face those once in a while.

By: Patrick

Patrick — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:26:07 +0000

Joey,

That is what I think. It just looks textually odd in English and I wondered how Tim saw it.

By: joey

joey — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:39:02 +0000

I’ll throw in my two cents (and I know this is controversial)….
THERE ARE NO ROGUE DEMONS. The satan does nothing except by the leave of God. Notice Job 1: Satan puts the challenge to GOD to touch Job (“stretch out YOUR hand…”) and then God sends Satan to do that very thing. Satan has no authority to do anything on his own. Satan is not deity. Job 1:16 says that it was “God’s fire” that burned Job’s crops. And in the end, Job knows that it is ultimately God who brought him all the troubles.
2 Cor 12: Paul’s “thorn” was given to him by a “messenger from Satan.” Yet, the thorn was explicitly given for a holy purpose: TO keep him from being big-headed and to make him a better minister. So, we know that ultimately it came from God. The satanic messenger might have intended evil, but it still did the bidding of God.